Why are Asians so over-represented at TJ? I offer the following observations. First, they prepare for the second-grade test that gets them into the Advanced Academic Programs. Once there, they work hard and qualify for the most advanced programs offered in 7th grade. Beginning in sixth grade, sometimes earlier, they attend courses designed to help them succeed in all aspects of the TJ admissions process: the test, the essays, the teacher recommendations, the resume-enhancing activities. It works because families of white, black, and brown kids are not able or willing to put this much emphasis on the admissions prep. That so many Asians graduate from TJ and go on to liberal arts college programs rather than STEM degrees is further proof that we are using the wrong measures for admitting students to TJ.

I assume you don't know that liberal arts colleges also offer majors in computer science and the physical sciences.

Given that, what is the basis of your assertion that many asians go on to liberal arts colleges? Where are the stats?

From what I've seen, many whites that attend TJ end up with non technical degrees, but I'm not going out on a limb to say a majority do. In fact, asians have been pigeonholed as the minority group that focuses on technical degrees compared to whites, which really refutes your accusation.

Going to a liberal arts school is not inconsisten with receiving a STEM education. I went to a liberal arts college and received a degree in mathematics with a fair amount of science as well. Not everyone interested in STEM will go to MIT or Cal Tech, you know. And there is nothing about TJ that is intended to direct kids to particular colleges.

Not really sure how the NAACP got it right when, as you say, it's a socio economic problem rather than an issue about the ethnic makeup of an applicant. Are we saying that a white kid who's being raised by a single parent, lives in an apartment, and has to hold down an after-school job to make ends meet has an advantage over an African American, Hispanic, or Asian kid who lives in a million dollar home, and wants for nothing? Absurd.

Asians are a minority also. You can't claim prejudice when Asians are in the majority at the school! Plus, many immigrant Asians come from a poor background... it's just that historically they work very hard once they are here, so they succeed.

@Amelie - I am very much not claiming prejudice just the opposite. I am saying don't blaming any one group if they applied and had the grades and the test scores I don't see the problem. I was saying that if a student feels that they were not admitted because of their race then they can sue not the NAACP. In the write up I did not see that any student is bringing this suit just the NAACP for blacks and Asians. I am saying if a students feels that if he was unjustly treated then he or she should deal with it not a group.

@CD - sorry, should have made my comment clearer. Hispanics and African Americans are trying to claim prejudice because they are not equally represented, but since clearly minorities are not being excluded because of the overwhelming number of Asians in the program, I don't see how they can claim minority exclusion.

My understanding is that there are way more qualified students than there are spaces available... The best solution would be to open another TJ in the Western part of the county...

TJ was not a magnet school for math and science in 1964. It was a regular, neighborhood high school.

I do not see why one would necessarily go to TJ to run the country, as it is primarily focused on math and science, not business. It is quite clear, to me at least, that a very large portion of white parents, and I assume other groups, are not interested at all in sending their children to TJ even if they are extremely bright. Many children simply do not have a great interest in math and science, and most sensible parents do not try to foce square pegs into round holes when it comes to their children. Of several dozen children with great grades with whom we are familiar, only two even applied to TJ. So it is fallacious to think that it is some sort of ultimate dream for every white parent out there. If my children were going to be mathematics majors with a heavy dose of science, as I was, we would be interested in TJ, but since they are not, we see no good reason to apply, even though they do quite well in those subjects and have received excellent scores on the standardized tests.

Classic FCPS propaganda: blame the parents.

FCPS bears no responsibility for its failure to identify African American, Hispanic and poor kids who would qualify for Level IV instruction, right?

So typical.

Every child is given the CoGAT and NNAT tests in second grade to determine whether or not they qualify for AAP. It's a nonverbal test so that ESL kids can do it too. If your child scores above a certain range, they are considered for AAP. Other input comes from the teachers -- who can also recommend students who miss the threshold score but the teachers feel are qualified. Parents can also give input and request additional testing if they think their child was overlooked. Certainly the NAACP could try to persuade more minority parents to push for AAP qualification but it's not like FCPS is sending home letters just to white and Asian kids and saying "shh, we have a secret test your kid needs to take to get into AAP." Kids whose parents opt to leave them in their base school rather than carting them to a gifted center get enrichment with a special visiting teacher.

So I am not sure what else FCPS can do or needs to do to encourage people to get their kids into AAP if they qualify. My kid applied to TJ; he had excellent math scores but he can write worth a darn. He didn't get in. And that's the way it is: not everyone gets to go to MIT, and TJ is this county's prep for the MIT's of the world. Are we really doing our minority kids a favor by pushing them into a school they can't handle, so that they end up graduating at the bottom of the class with their self esteem shot? Whatever the reason -- parents who spend money on tutors, whatever- the end result is the same.

@John - Why is it the government fault why can not people take responsibility for themselves? Everyone is aware of TJ it has never been a secret place. When I grew up I chose not to go there. I know many parents know their children can not handle the school rigorous academic standards and do not apply. Parents need to take responsibility for their children not the government.

Because the burden is on the government to see that its resources are allocated in a fashion that isn't invidiously discriminatory. See Brown v. School Board (1954)

@John - Does Brown vs the Board of Education have any place in today's society? Even does have a place do you really think that those doing the admission process is excluding a group on purpose or are they looking at the overall person. Secondly, it is the parents responsibility to be the advocate for their child it is not where the government or outside group belongs.

@Mike, regarding the screening in 2nd grade. The information on this screening comes home in Tuesday or weekly folders that are packed with a TON of other papers and if the parent is not separately informed at a back to school night or a separate mailing, the parent does not know. What is also not common knowledge is that if the student does not do well enough to get into a gifted center, FCPS, will pay one additional time to get the kids tested usually in the 5th grade. I am an African-American mother who had to probe and fight to even get my daughter re-tested and her file reviewed again. My request got her into one of the gifted and talented centers. She took a TJ prep course in the summer before 8th grade and the year before. The TJ admissions has 2 rounds and my daughter, although academically talented, didn't make the 1st round of cuts. There IS something wrong if mostly Asians are being selected. But then again, many of the TJ students wind up going to psychiatrists over the pressure of TJ. Obviously the work also must begin in 2nd grade to notify parents.

Agree with you 100%!

Absolutely! Either that or I start whining that my kids didn't make the cut for the football team.

Wow - your statement is a touch on the racist side. It's not whole "cultures" that do or do not value education and hard work, it's individuals. Don't lump everyone who doesn't look like you into some "culture" that you know nothing about. Also, many of these "cultures" work harder than you will ever know to succeed in this country.

Now, I don't disagree with the rest of your comments. I am hispanic. I was in TJ's class of 1990. I believe that everyone should be evaluated by the same academic criteria. The problem starts before high school. We need to prepare children better for higher education.

I was a substitute teacher not too long ago in a FCPS elementary school. Why did the teacher have me reading to sixth graders? At the very least they should have been reading aloud to each other. Our public school systems are failing our children - all of them. The only ones with a really good chance at success are those with educated parents who can spend time with them.

I agree that admission should be color blind and based solely on merit. I think you meant to say that some cultures value education more than others; there would probably be agreement that many asians are extremely serious about their children's education. But this is certainly variable within cultures. There is also a disturbing trend with college scholarships being based on a student's community service! See Kohl's scholarship. Should scholarships be about scholarship?

The only problem Jody, is that you have a very narrow view of everything. For example, what is "merit." You seem to think it is purely test scores, but almost every college/university in the world disagrees. I won't get into your treating all Asians as one culture, other than to say I more than suspect that they would disagree.

Your dismay over scholarships based on community service is another example of how narrow you are? What is "scholarship"? Simply grades and test scores? Again, institutions of higher learning disagree. Nor do they see their mission as simply a technical one of putting learning in the heads of children; rather, they are trying to tuirn out people who are prepared to succeed in and benefit the world. In any event, there are studies indicating that people who perform community service do better academically. When you get to the college process, you will see that community service, as well as many other non-scholarship factors, plays a substantial role in who gets in and who does not.

In any event, the majority of scholarships are not for scholarship -- sports scholarships, scholarships for contributions to an organization, etc.

Bill, I agree with you 100%, as long as the admissions process is objective and provides equal ACCESS, not equal OUTCOME. Blacks and Latinos should have to meet the same criteria as Whites, Asians, and other racial groups for access to TJ.

Success in America can not be handed out by some pre-determined quota established by the NAACP or any other special interest group. If the NBA were organized around such absurd notions as "under representation", we would have some pretty crummy basketball teams.

It is equally outrageous that cows and alligators aren't recruited, admitted to, and served by our elite institutions of higher learning.

Why is it obvious that the barriers are not just grade and test merit? You have not provided a single reason and I am aware of none. Maybe there are some, but you should identify them and not just say they are obvious. that is typically a trick used when someone is unable to enumerate something.

And is it your view that the county should not have any type of special schools or special programs, beyond I assume those required by Federal law to try to raise those not meeting standard up to standard. So, no magnet schools, no language immersion schools, no advanced learning programs because they do not benefit everyone? Do that, and you will not only move FCPS from a top school system to a mediocre system, but you will see parents who care about education move out of the county in droves, driving down housing prices that are inflated by the value of the school system and further reducing the ability to serve the needy.

I have no quarrel with devoting extra resources to the disadvantaged. Indeed, I was happy to see proposals and candidates to the contrary defeated. It seems to me, however, that the best way out of this is not to degrade the school system, but rather to devote more time, effort, and resources to identifying and preparing members of the underrepresented minorities so that they may be able to qualify for advanced education opportunities.

eric

that's the point of the complaint: FCPS is not making adequate effort to get African-ameicans, hispanics, poor and special ed kids into the level IV programs in elementary school to prepare them to be successful @ TJ.

@Eric, if what you just typed is true, then the egalitarian race-hustlers should just STFU and stop with the diversity bean-counting, and accept the results of standardized testing. The bogus, Orwellian doctrine of "disparate impact" argues from the standpoint that exams for admission to schools, and exams to hire and promote cops, firefighters, and so forth just somehow come out of nowhere and disproportionately "hit" minority applicants who were otherwise minding their own business. Nonsense. That's why the Supreme Court ruled in favor of Ricci in Ricci v. DeStefano--Ricci is dyslexic for crying out loud, and he went to extraordinary lengths, efforts, and expense to prepare for the firefighter's promotion exam and improve his performance. Of course, he and other white firefighters were denied promotions because not a single black scored well enough on the exam to make the cut, and only one hispanic did. The leftist egalitarian race-hustlers threw the test out, said that the multiple choice test is racist, despite the fact that black and hispanic "diversity consultants" had been brought in to help write the test, vetting each question exhaustively, and that black and hispanic firefighters had been involved in the writing of the test. Give me a break with this crap already. Despite the SCOTUS ruling, Eric Holder's DOJ is still suing a fire dept. in Florida because blacks can't or won't pass the exam...and it just goes on endlessly, everywhere...

Fact flash: scientifically there's no such thing as race. It is purely a political construct.

thanks for making your racism explicit.

Don Joy: I strongly disagree with your assertion. All races in America are provided equal rights and equal access in the law. The reason some races are not succeeding in America and in Fairfax County have more to do with their culture, values, religion, and strength of the family. All racial groups do not share common values.

Oh, I see, no such thing as race. Gee thanks for enlightening me. Now please go inform Eric Holder, Brokeback Obongo, La Raza, the NAACP, the SPLC, et. al.

Anoneemous

more bigorty

That racism exists and race doesn't, scientifically, demonstrates once again the ignorance of bigotry.

@Anoneemous: All people have qual rights and equal justice under the law, yes, but that does not mean that all people are equal in character, ability, efforts, results, and opportunities. There is the essential flaw in our society's thinking: The fallacy of equal opportunity permeates all of our discourse. Anyone who observes that the whole point of good parenting is to make sure one's children have more and better opportunities than the children of inferior derelicts understands that not all cultures are equal.

So, Anoneemous, you actually DO agree with my assertion, you just don't realize it, even though you yourself spelled it out, the same thing I am saying.

Not equal in what way? And what is your evidence? And why are we discussing groups, rather than individuals?

@Eric--Golly, I wonder where the discussion of racial groups got started!

I do not understand why we are trying to peg things to race? Are we suggesting that people of certain races have genetic traits that do or do not allow them to do well? If so, that is both nonsense and very dangerous. And again, if we talk about cultures, family structures, etc., we ought to be clear that we are talking about issues that may affect a group, but that even if somewhat true at a group level, do not necessarily affect individuals. For example, there seems to be a suggestion that black and latino families, at least those in the U.S., do not have a tradition of caring as greatly about education. Whether or not that is true overall, it is certainly not true at the individual level, so it is a dangerous stereotype. Being Jewish and very smart, I was subjected to the exact same type of stereotyping, albeit on religious, rather than racial, terms, and it is simply the wrong way to look at an issue.

@Eric - excellent response. Chunking up does not solve the problem it exasperates it.

Don't know if you are responding to me or not, but if it is to me, I am always perfectly honest. Some people can be both honest and non-racist.

oh P Evans, you and your "logic". Logic has no basis here! It's emotions that rule the roost! Black people and hispanics are being poorly treated because.....well, just because!

It is obvious from your grammar and spelling that your knowledge about quality education is all hearsay. You might be taken more seriously if you could at least spell your own screen name properly.

Anonomymous

If "TJ is a school to help gifted students," why are such a large fraction of their students in need of remediation in math?

Something has gone very wrong at TJ.

I guess "waiting for Superman" and the "Lottery" are false depictions of what can be done. The public education system is broken - not because of bad teachers - it's the system. The public funds are designated to educate Fairfax children in the most efficacious manner. Public, private, charter, home school shouldn't matter...the only thing that matters is results.

Waiting For Superman? Are you kidding? While it received decent notices from film critics and a few newspaper hacks, it got devastated by anyone with any credentials in education, one of weho called it "a slick marketing piece full of half-truths and distortions." Among other things, it asserted that money was not an issue for inner city schools, but hid the fact that the charter school they lauded had had tens of millions of dollars poured into it. And its almost exclusive focus was on standardized test scores, which everyone in Fairfax having anything to do with education recognizes is a sure way to dumb down the curriculum, So yes, it is a very inaccurate view of reality. And there are many actual studies of charter schools in general that conclude that they do not seem to make any improvement as a general rule. Using vouchers will simply end the FCPS as a top school system. Name one other top school system that uses vouchers.

The obvious fallacy within this assertion is that even with 35% of it students in need of remediation, TJ is still overwhelmingly rich, white and asian as the numbers posted above demonstrate.

So how does the population in need of remediation break down demographically?

Can't be many African American or Hispanics. There just aren't enough there to total 35%.

Deficient, if that is the appropriate word, in math. And please provide support for your unsupported claim that it has something to do with the admissions process. I am aware of no basis for such an assertion, and my understanding of the admission process and my knowledge of results would be to the contrary.

And of course you are misstating the focus of the NAACP complaint, but why let facts get in the way of a good rant?

You are obviously not a lawyer, as you are totally misreading the complaint. There is not a single word in there about setting up a quota system. Indeed, the complaint does not ask for any particular remedy. What the complaint does identify as deficiencies that lead to blacks and Asians being under-represented at TJ, however, are primarily (i) failure to properly identify individuals in grade school who could benefit from the advanced learning that assists children in becoming qualified for TJ, and (2) failure of TJ to promote its programs to such individuals who might qualify. Neither in any way suggests quotas.

You are exactly right scott. This should not be a race issue. Every child needs an education suited to that child's needs. Not everyone is capable or interested in going to a school like TJ. The mission of Tj is to teach math and science to the academically gifted. Its mission is not to right the wrongs of society or compensate for absent parents or level the playing field. Life is unfair. Fairfax county does an amazing job of educating all their students. Having raised many kids including my own and others, its clear from early on that kids are born with different strengths, weeknesses, athletic prowess, etc. no matter how hard we try or how much money we throw at it we will eventually realize that all men are created equal only in the eyes of god.

Stow the supercilious condescension.

35% of the existing TJ admittees need remediation yet the proportion of African-American, Hispanic poor and special education kids at TJ are far below the FCPS wide averages.

Therefore, it appears that rich, white and asian kids are being admitted who don't qualify based on merit.

Billie Lylton

I am perfectly calm and in no i danger of a stroke. There is no proposal on the table, by me, the NAACP. or anyone, to alter the merit aspect of admission to TJ, so you can ignore the hobgoblins in your head. Nor has anyone other than opponents suggested anything about a quota. The main complaint of the NAACP is that the method for identifying those to whom advanced services will be provided in GRADE SCHOOL does not accurately identify the people who should receive them. If they are correct, then the system should be fixed. They also allege that budget cuts to certain programs and TJ's recruiiting procedures exacerbate the problem. Again, if they are correct, no sensible person could deny that the problem ought to be corrected.

As to me, despite your ravings, I have taken no position on what should be done. I do not know whether the facts being alleged are correct -- whether blacks and latinos are being missed by the screening program and whether the TJ recruitment program works to their advantage. Nor do I know whether there are things that we could do to further support children who are disadvantaged or otherwise in need of support (which presumably would include a number of black and latino students,) so as to enhance their ability to later meet the standards of TJ. If the facts warrant, I would support action. Unlike you, I do not jump to conclusions and propose actions/positions without ascertaining the facts.

LC
It was a pleasure reading your honest comment. Whether or not you attend TJ won't be as important in future years as your honesty, intellect and awareness will. I'm sure you will continue to be successful in life.

You should read the complaint before you say something. This is not about equality of outcome, but opportunity. As often, inequality of outcome is simply used as an indicator that the processes are not working correctly. the biggest focus of the complaint is that the system used in Grade School for identifying who should receive advanced educational services is missing kids who should be included on ability. Since those kids fo not get the advanced services, they have a much lesser chance of getting into TJ. If they are right, and I do not know whether or not they are, then the system should be fixed. To assume that you know exactly why the non-Asian minority admissions to TJ is so low strikes me as rather presumptuous if you are not willing to examine the steps that lead up to admission.

You claim that students have the same opportunity to learn as everyone no matter what school. you offer no support for this claim, and if the complaint is correct, it is dead wrong. And your belief that someone who is not fluent in English should be written off as simply not a top student seems to equate English fluency with intelligence and is simply appalling. Perhaps we should just abandon the deaf and blind as well.

Throwing kids into the water to let them sink or swim, rather than offering them lessons, is simply not a sensible approach to education and may well result in the drowing of kids who could well, with some support, become championship swimmers.

The comments you make do not further this discussion/debate. Your arguments are weak because you fail to hold yourself to the same rigorous standards of evidence and proof to which you expect everyone else to meet.

If you read the complaint, it is your reading comprehension that needs improvement. And if you go to many foreign countries, they will in fact assist with language fluency, so that people who are behind in their language abilities can reach their potential, which may be well above their most fluent peers. There is of course little reason why someone should get to TJ without sufficient fluency in English unless they recently arrived, in which case if they are capable of doing the work, absolutely an accomodation should be made as it would be for any other person with potential but a fixable hurdle.

No, gifted motivated children cannot achieve their potential at any school, and I challenge you to show any support for their proposition. They may do well at the school, but that is an entirely different matter. Getting good grades and learning what you need are two entirely different things. If they were not, we would not need schools, we could simply let kids be raised by hyenas.

So the hiring of a person at great expense means the problem is solved? Why does it even suggest something of the sort? Haven't you read enough stories where people accomplish exactly the opposite of what was intended?

Nor have you given any support for the proposition that TJ is getting the wrong kids. That is only one of many possible explanations. It is equally possible that they are taking more kids, or that, contrary to what you say, they would do better if they changed the demographics. It is OK to have a hypothesis to tes, but it is entirely different to reach a conclusion with neither a hypothesis not a test.

Apparently you do not even remember your own comments. First you say the non-fluent cannot succeed, then you say they can succeed with time and help. Or perhaos it is your lack of fluency in English that prevents you from expressing yourself in a coherent fashion. In any event, when it comes to math and sciences, you are simply wrong.

I happen to have a degree in Mathematics, with honors, from a top tier U.S> University, along with a heavy does of science classes. As anyone who has spent time in a major math program can tell you, they are full of students who are not fluent of Eglish, but succeed admirably. Two of my better classmates, for example, were far from fluent, but they not only got through the curriculum with flying colors, but now have doctorates in math. Similarly, close to 40% of my math teachers were not fluent in English, and a few could barely be called functional. Indeed, I had a big advantage in a couple of my sophmore classes, as i had two teachers from Freshman year, and so had advantage in understanding.

Science was similar, but to a noticeably lesser extent.

And what makes you qualified to assess math instructors? My older daughter has been in honors math for three years (and my younger will start next year), and their programs were better and more rigorous than any i had as a child, even covering some things I did not learn until college. And as noted in a prior comment. i was a math major. I would look at a lot of the work and much of it was challenging even for me.

I am not 100% convinced about some of the grade school methods, but they certainly seem to produce kids who can do really hard work in middle school and high school.

@Dalton - I totally agree and I raised one who received a 1100 on the Math and Verbal part on the SAT but barely passed High School. I would of never sent him to TJ he would have never made it out.

Re-read your own comment. Read logically, it stated that someone who is not fluent in English could not be a top student. That is just not true, as many of them graduate from top colleges every year. And it is certainly not the case that evryone who wants a college education can get one. Some peole cannot afford it, and there is not enough money out there for everyone, and some people out there do not qualify, even for lower level Universities.

TJ does just take math/science whizzes. If you do not achieve a certain level in those areas you do not get in, and if you do well enough in those areas you can do less well in others. It is after all the TJ school of math and sciences. But no, it is not the end of the world to not get in. Indeed, I did not even suggest to my older daughter and will not suggest to my younger daughter that they even apply, as math/science are not their main interests, even though my older daughter has been two years accelerated in math.

Again, the purpose of education is and never has been solely about simply book learning. It has always been about training kids for life, which is a lot apart from morals. Schools have always looked at things other than pure grades and test scores, and will always do so. Today, when applicants for top schools are by traditional criteria much more qualified than ever, those things are even more important than ever, and children who do not come to grips with it will suffer in the admissions process.

I have seen the Race to Nowhere twice, and there is a great difference between the problems described there and a well rounded child. My older daughter does a pretty substantial amount of homework in her honors classes (way more than I did at her age), plays on the high school basketball team, the high school soccer team, and a travel soccer team, among other things, yet she has more than ample time to watch TV (she can tell you all of the plots and characters of several series). She is not stressed or overscheduled. Nor is she pressured. She is planning to take the full IB diploma even though we have told her that we see no need for her to do that. She accelerated two years in math against our advice. Nor do we really worry what college she gets into. She is responsible at doing her schoolwork and she will get in where she gets in. We just hope she will be happy there.

There is no problem with her taking tests and forgetting the material. Indeed, in most of her honors class they do not teach to the test because the material is far more advanced than the tests, and so she has gotten a past advanced on every single SOL without any work specifically geared thereto. As one of her math teachers said the first week. Don't worry about the SOL because nobody can pass this class and not get a passed advanced on the test.

So our experience has apparently been markedly different from yours.

Perhaps you might want to read the complaint, which is not about what you rant abouy, but rather about claimed deficiencies at the GRADE SCHOOL level that leave some children with less opportunity to apply to TJ. There is NO suggestion that TJ changes its admission requirements.

As we now agree on what you meant, we can simply iggnore the issue of what you said. And i can direct you to hundreds of people who would disprove your belief that anyone can go to college and get a degree. I have spoken with people across the country who could not get in even to a community college -- and I agree that perhaps they should not go -- and many others who cannot manage the money even with available loans and working in school. Most of us here are a good deal more fortunate than many throughout the country.

College never was a guarantee of a good job, but clearly the statistics are that, as a class, the higher the education level the higher the lifetime income. That does not mean that college is right for all; some people may find it better to go into more technical training. Part of the problem is that there is such a bias against blue collar jobs that we have places of employment where people will take a white collar job with little chance of advancement rather than take a blue collar job in the same building that requires some computer skills and training that pays a meaningful amount more.

Thank you. I certainly agree that you lose math quickly if you do not use it, as I found I had to relearn a lot of Algebra I and Geometry when my older daughter was in Middle School. However, it did come a great deal faster the second time, as there seem to still be synapses from when I last did math in college some 35+ years ago. And I am not, as I said, sold on some of what they do in grade school, other than that it seems to work for at least some. The honors courses, however, do reinforce. Geometry, for example, required a significant amount of Algebra I, and Algebra II reinforces some geometry.

Good point. The complaint is primarily aimed exactly at the process for identifying kids who are Level IV eligible and thus gain a great advantage in terms of future admission to TJ. I agree that the thing to do is start at the bottom (second grade) and examine how and whether the process is working as it should.

I of course would phrase it differently as making sure that you are not inappropriately excluding people, or that you are selecting the most qualified and appropriate students.

Well I suppose that is better than a blathering know-nothing.

Obviously, you did not read my comments very carefully, or you would no my position. I do not have any suggestions on the TJ admissions process, and indeed, as I have explained repeatedly, the complaint is not focused on the TJ admissions process. The central critique of the complaint is that the GRADE SCHOOL process for identifying children eligible for level 4 training is inadequate. Kids who get level 4 training in grade school have a large leg up in learning things that help them apply to TJ. So if people are improperly excluded from Level 4 in grade school, they are improperly denied a fair opportunity to compete for TJ. I hope that is direct and simple enough for you to follow.

I do not know if the complaint is right, and I have said that repeatedly. All I have said is that the demographic disparities suggest that there is a problem and that a hard look should be taken to make sure that procedures are not improperly excluding people who might compete for a position or to see whether there is additional support that we might offer to better prepare disadvantaged children so they might be in a position to compete. I have not once prejudged that analysis or stated that it should come out one way ot another. Stating that there may be a problem and we should look at it carefully is in no way akin to saying we should do anything about the TJ admission process.

I don't mind being criticized for my positions, but it is silly to comment on non-positions.

Obviously I type too fast. The no in my first line should be know. I am sure there are other typos, but I do not have time to proof.

And no, i am not "better" than anyone. More opinionated than some, perhaps, more intelligent, informed and educated than some, undoubtedly. But I fail to see what relevance that has and why every person does not have a "right" to express his or her view about other's comments. And as already noted, your comment about an insightful solution is totally irrelevant to the my comments, which you claim to have read, as they are all addressed to investigating whether there even is a problem and not to solutions to a problem that may or may not exist.

Thank you. I try to believe that a lot of it is simply lack of understanding.

It is a load of crap, which is why it will never get published in any peer reviewed journal, or any profesionally published journal of any repute. It could not survive 2 seconds of peer review. Even a person of moderate science background such as me can easily tear it apart. There are absolutely no controls for socioeconomic or other factors, which dooms it right there. And it is internally inconsistent, as it has some lighter skinned people doing worse than some darker skinned people. It is essentially utter trash.

Somebody posited a somewhat similar theory back in the early 1970s. It was trashed so badly that it totally disappeared in months -- at least until now. Only the bigoted would accept a word of this.

Eric, a correlation of 1.0 being perfect correlation, would you in your brilliant intellectual supremacy deem that a correlation of .92 is some kind of spurious happenstance?

...and, Eric, what of "socioeconomic factors" where the animals studied are concerned? You don't suppose biology has anything to do with the fact that squirrels are not admitted to advanced programs of study, or hired and promoted up the ranks of various organizations, do you? Whitey must be keeping them down, right?

Being a mathematician, I can tell you that correlations are irrelevant to causation, so your question is the wrong one. And in any event, 92% is never considered enough of a degree of certainty for scientists in anything. A confidence level of at least 95% is uniformly required to suggest any belief that something did not happen by chance. 92% means that it is likely happen one out of every 13 times -- not very odds. In comparison, for example, the likelihood that the 300+ straight months of global temperature above the 20th century average that we have had could occur by chance is about 1 x 10 to the negative 39th power. Now there is something that is not happening by chance!

Why are you conflating humans and squirrels. You do realize, I hope, that we have evolved into biologically distinct species, and that the last branch on the evolutionary tree that we might have shared with monkeys, much less squirrels, would have been an unfathomable long time ago. Different species have all sorts of differences. Bees, for example, display a remarkable altruism that for a while baffled evolutionary scientists. Many willingly give up their lives to protect others, and the vast majority give up the right to reproduce. I assume that you understand that humans differ in many respects from other species, including the great apes that we most closely resemble.

Eric, you are spewing a bunch of utter garbage.

"Eric, you are spewing a bunch of utter garbage"

Always the response of someone who cannot follow what you are saying and has nothing intelligent to add.

Don,
About the “studies” you posted, I have to agree with Eric – what a load of crap. You might as well have posted some studies written by the KKK. I noticed “Council of Conservative Citizens” organization which published one of the studies, has several organizational “principals,” one which of is that they believe that “the American people and government should remain European in their composition and character.”

Spelling correction to my last post at 5:32: It should read “principles,” not “principals.”

Jared Taylor weighs in:

http://www.amren.com/news/2012/07/those-unmentionable-asians/

For those who don't know, Mr. Taylor happens to live in Fairfax County.

Barbara, I understand that you don't like the scientific findings of people such as Dr. Rushton, but apart from your emotional response, can you rebut them factually? Just wondering.

Don, What I don’t like is racism. And I am familiar with Jarod Taylor, founder of the American Renaissance, who is a pro-white thinker, believes in racial profiling, believes that blacks are less intelligent than whites, etc. He had a meeting in a Herndon hotel a couple of years, to which David Duke attended. I won’t bother trying to rebut any of your or Jarod Taylor’s theories. I’ll just leave it to say that you and I differ greatly on this matter.

Just remember that there are two ways to close an "achievement gap". Unfortunately, the quickest way is to close it from the top.

Why do you and almost everyone else think there should be "equal opportunity," anyway? You've been brainwashed into such a depraved, immoral belief. The whole point of taking the trouble to be good parents is to make sure one's children have more and better opportunities than the children of derelicts. When statist egalitarian do-gooders swoop in and socially-engineer away incentives for parents to go to pains to afford their children privileges and advantages, the very meanings of responsibility and excellence are trashed. Marxism is evil, and I strongly suggest that you and the rest of America desist from it, even if you know it by some other name. Remember, every opportunity is just another outcome.

Well Don, the whole point of having a society is to negate anti-social me-first people such as you, by providing for an oderly process that is mutually agreable to the majority without trampling on the crucial rights of the minority. that is the whole function of the Constitution. Why should you not be able to do anything that you want -- say shoot people, or run them over with your car, exceed the speed limit with impunity.

Tossing around a bunch of words while misusing their meaning will get you nowhere but an object of amusement.

...the smallest minority being the individual, and prudent discrimination being one of the most fundamental rights (imperatives, no less!) individuals exercise.

The Constitution does protect the rights of individuals, but there is no reference therein to the right to discriminate against others, except perhaps in certain specific ways, such as not allowing the authorities to search your house without a warrant or appropriate warrantless circumstances.

Freedom of association IS one of the most basic natural rights of man; unfortunately, social engineers like yourself have made it an almost non-existent taboo in contemporary society.

Freedom of association is not a natural right, as there are under U.S. law no natural rights. It is of course a right guaranteed by the Constitution. However, you have identified no respect in which it has been infringed, nor acknowledged that it is not and never been an absolute right, so that unlike the right to free speech, the right to associate has never been thought to allow the imposition of undue burdens on third parties. If you are going to try to make legal comments, it might be helpful if you knew some law, rather than echo vague notions of Montesqui.

"The schools should provide the same education and support for all students and that's it."

Your comment most clearly implied exactly what I said. again, you presumably did not mean what you wrote

I am not trying to suggest that schools can be, or even should be, the answer to every problem. In many cases, it is the student and the parents that need to remedy the problem. But in other cases, the school can, and under the law is required to, provide support that it can provide. You cannot have a GT program that is designed in such a way that it routinely underidentifies minorities. It is wrong and it is against the law. Results that differ from demographics alert to a possible problem, but do not prove it exists. The complaint gives reasons beyond pure numbers to also suggest that there might be a problem. I have no dog in this fight, but to me this clearly warrants a close look.

That makes no sense. Kids have a chance to prove themselves if and only if the system accurately identifies those who have proved themselves. Otherwise, it is more or less like throwing darts or rolling dice. And you may not have a problem with discriminating, but the law does.

You cannot even tell a cart from a horse, or the part of the horse you resemble. In any event, I will no longer bother arguing with an ignorant bigot. As my late mother used to say, it is not worth debating with a fool; they will just drag you down to their level. I should have listened to that advice many posts ago.

The countries behind which we lag largely do not have the "diversity" undertow to contend with, dragging everything down...

...not to the extent that we have it, that is.

Bigoted, and wrong. The reports that address this demonstrate that it has nothing to do with portion of minorities, and everything to do with inequality, which is also the major reason why we lag so far behind in wealth and standard of living, not to mention health care.

Deny reality all you like. You've got the cart before the horse.

The majority (1) is a small number of people, and (2) cannot change the requirements of federal and state law. And again, why are you talking about the TJ selection process when that is not in issue? Addressing strawman arguments gets nowhere. And I am glad to know that your experience with your child allows to to say what happens with the more than 50,000 kids in FCPS every year, as well as their parents. You must either get around like Santa Claus or be quite prescient, although again you are talking about a non-issue -- the TJ selection process.

No, there a couple of existing papers out there which I have read and long since discarded. Don't recall whether or not they were in journals. In one, he discussed East versus west Africans and speed versus endurance. You correctly describe his first work, but it was not for the purpose of identifying differences between blacks and whites. Indeed, he has explained that high degrees of fast twitch (and low twitch) muscle fibers are present in every population (a much better word than race), but that they had a higher proportion among West Africans. East Africans displayed a different pattern, and he did not explore other black populations.

Perhaps some of our issues are semantic. It is obvious that fast twitch muscles are not a racial trait, as even apart from their broad distribution among all races and populations, they are concentrated only in certain African populations. Thus, even if you could attribute the trait to a group, it would be to a population -- West African blacks.

Kenyans, for example, have a very different muscle pattern. There was research done by a Swede, the name of whom escapes me, in which he found that Kenyan school kids could routinely beat Swedish top runners at middle to long distances -- whether in Kenya or in Sweden. He found that both had similar fiber compositions, but there were small differences in shape and processing that appeared to make a difference. I am not sure this was really genetic or environmental, though.

Please excuse the typos and a wrod omission or two, as I needed to type fast and also to cut out words to meet the maximum. I hope the meaning comes through.

I am not sure that you even know what a sophist is. And it does not matter what you do, you still have little understanding of genetics if you believe that something that is simply found in greater abundance among one race than another is a racial trait. Nobody who has taken even an elementary genetics course should make such a foolish mistake.

And one cannot debate oneself by taking a consistent position, which is exactly what I have done.

You are also wrong about Dr. Bouchard's work, which I imagine you have not read, He does in fact address runners, not race.

Apparently you are too slow to understand why fast twitch and slow twitch muscles cannot both be racial traits. One may predominate in one place and one in another, but these are people of the same race, so it cannot be a racial trait. Certain diseases, for example, may be called racial traits, because there are genes found in a particular race (or in some other particular population) linked to that disease but genes that are spread throughout all races but simply found more commonly in certain races are not racial traits.

And you still have not explained what any of this has to do with your original comment about basketball.

Finally, while I answer to Jeff among friends, you may call me Eric

Eric must have an advance copy of a new paper by Claude Bouchard.
Because the only one out there for the rest of us right now concerns Bouchards taking muscle samples from two groups of students: French-Canadian and West-African.
He did not test athletes per se. No doubt some of the subjects had athletic backgrounds, but that's was not part of the study.

Bouchard found that the West-African students had significantly more large fast-twitch muscles.

Eric, if you would, please provide a cite to Bouchard's more recent work concerning runners so I can get up to speed with you.

Well, now we know Bouchard is junk science!

French-Canadians are representative of a "race" that includes Slavs, Celts, Hungarians, Finns and Russ.

West Africans?!

What the h*ll is a West African? Do you know how many different tribes exist in West Africa?

Do you know that West Africans are among the most genetically diverse group of people on the planet?

As far as I know, I have never been black. What should have been obvious is that I received a deficiient educational experience, even at what was considered an excellent school system. The reason was because they of necessity had to teach at a level suitable to the class as a whole. At FCPS, I would not have been subject to that holding back. Even apart from possibly going to a GT school, I would have been in the top groups in all of the subjects in grade schools, and in all honors courses in middle school and high school. That would have been not only more valuable, but also a great deal more enjoyable and a much better use of my time.

Classes now are not easy. My daughters' classes are very challenging, and many do fail. Her French class was so challenging that I know several kids who never before earned anything less than an A, who got Cs, or Ds, so you have no idea what you are talking about. Much of her math is at or near college level, aand her history and giology are not far behind. Gross and untrue generalizations advance nothing.

You apparently have no idea also how kids get into GT, as it is and should not be, anything like what you suggest. And it may be that minorities being under represented does not bother you, but it should, and it bothers the law, unless it can be determined that there is a satisfactory, nondiscriminatory answer for the discrepancy. You obviously belong to no group traditionaly subject to discrimination.

Gee Don, with witticisms such as that, you must have been a real terror on the playground. Too bad you never grew up.

You might try telling the Canadian geneticist and exercise physiologist Claude Bouchard that his findings on fast-twitch muscles is, as you put it, "pure nonsense."

Though perhaps you are too "smart"......by half.

He isn't smart at all, merely "special."

Well I am certainly marter than either of you, and by well more than half. Among other things, I am familiar with Dr. Bouchard's work, having read several of his papers. They do not support your hypothesis. Dr. Bouchard shows that people who are successful long distance runners are more likely to have a higher proportion of slow ttwitch muscles than the norm, and that sprinters are more likely to have a higher concentration of fast twitch muscles. His work is not directed to basketball, and there is no work making it so.

Moreover, his work is not directed to race. High proportions of fast twitch muscles are found in EVERY race. They are found at a higher rate in the black population, but it is an individual genetic trait and not a racial trait. So trying to make it seem like skin color is simply wrong. Blacks are also the predominat long distant runners, which again blows your claim to smithereens.

It does help to know something before you make facile assertions from junk websites or emails that are circulated by other racists.

I'd call Jeff a sophist, but he uses too many logical fallacies to qualify.
Now, if asking that question gets me branded by you as a racist, then I see your approach in what is called the sociology of knowledge. You'd be surprised at the kind of work I do and what a "lefty" I am. I also think for myself.
You say the fact that blacks are also good at long-distance running it blows my fast-twitch muscle point "to smithereens." Why can't blacks be superior at both long-distance running and sprinting? I expect you know that certain regions of Africa are known for producing many of the best at one or the other kind of running athlete -- fast or slow.
Bouchard's study didn't look at athletes. It looked at black and white and fast-twitch muscles. You say there's nothing beyond that. Perhaps because of folks like you. Your approach would be to look no further. I haven't jumped into this conversation to try to prove that blacks are intellectually inferior. I did so because you're so full of......uh, yourself.
You acknowledge that fast-twitch muscles are found at "a higher rate" in the black population, but that this is "an individual genetic trait not a racial trait."
So you're saying this is a trait present in a greater percentage of people in a particular race.
Do you ever notice when you go way out there on that logical limb that it gets thinner and starts to bend downward a lot? Your debating opponent is yourself, not me.

The Tamils of southern India and Sri Lanka have skin pigment darker than most sub-Saharan Africans. Do they have an elevated level of fast twitch muscles, too?

How about the the native people of Australia, their skin pigment is far darker than most sub-Sahara Afircans?

If you believe that race exists, which scientists say it doesn't, are those two ethnic groups included in the "black race?"

How about the Ine (sp?) of northern Japan and the Turkmen of Central Asia? Are their genotypes the same?

What's the comparative percentage of fast twitch muscles between Mende, Hutsi and Tutut?

It's so easy for Americans of European heritage to believe they can make fine distinctions and generalizations between people of Nordic versus Mediterranean versus Slavic heritage and than lump everyone from Africa into one group and everyone from Asia into another.

That's the fundamental fiction of racism. It's a dead end.

Is FCPS a segregated school system?

Bet your anatomy it is.

You can say it all you want, but it is meaningless unless you define it. And if you think that nobody is oppressing anybody anymore, you need to read the newspaper more and learn what is going on in the world. The number of coutries in which genocide is occurring right this miunte, much less milder forms of oppression, is horrifying.

And I do not think the holocaust occurred a few hundred years ago, as I have relatives who perished in that event, and they would be no older than my Dad, who is still very much alive.

The Bell Curve is correct, just not politically correct.

Ah, the battle cry of know nothing racists everywhere, who of course never adduce a single shred of evidence. How I love the smell of stupidity in the morning.

I see again that you do not belong to a group subject to discrimination has If so, you would understand the phenomenon. It is not just blacks, but other minorities that feel this way. As I said, I am Jewish. There is a long history of discrimination against Jews, and still a considerable amount of anti-semitism. My father, who was more directly affected, sees anti-semitism as at least one reason behind practically any bad thing that happens to any Jew, and that is typical among my relatives of that generation. I still tend to be on the suspicious side, and many peers even more so. It is a natural reaction.

Complainants provide specifics that they believe are wrong about GT identifiation. I think neither of us has the expertise to judge. All I suggest is that those with the expertise take a serious look at the complaint. If it is clear that there is nothing to it, then stop there. If there are facts and issues that warrant further investigation, do so. I am not prejudging the outcome. And again, I would look to see if there are ways that we can improve our support to children who have the innate capacity to compete for TJ, but for whatever reason, need some additional help to get in that position. This would not in my view be limited to blacks, latinos, or any other minorities, but is simply consistent with my philosophy that the goal of education is to maximize everyone's potential (within budget constraints, of course).

Well the U.S. is a lot better, but we still have instances of females being imported as slaves or turned into slaves once here.

Glad to see another voice of sanity. I was beginning to despair for my community, although I realize that it is usually just a few bigoted blowhards who bother to comment.

Oh wow Graham, talk about living in a fantasy world. Now you are bringing the disabled into the conversation? You might want to check how much money is spent in the county and the country on special needs students. The kids that really get cheated are the average kids who dont qualify for gifted or special ed. BTW i know a top TJ student who applied early to MIT a couple of years ago and didnt get in because they took exactly one caucasion male out of a dozen accepted(and that white boy played basketball). Is that fair? Life isnt fair and NEVER will be...except in fantasyland.

Oh baloney. Apochryphal stories about MIT and every school are a dime a dozen among racists.

What on earth are you talking about? I certainly deny it. There are a multitude of federal, state, local and private agencies to help the poor and disabled in the population. Children especially have enormous opportunity in the US. Everyone gets a free education and if you work hard you can be whatever you want to be. You'll have to find some reasons other than prejudice to explain why some individual young people don't take advantage of their education and why some individuals can't seem to break out of the cycle of poverty.

Caroline, the County does not have equitable services for "gifted" kids based on geography, not race.

Granted I don't know what the exact admissions process is now. When I was there 15 years ago, test scores and grades were the first round, and that helped place a floor under the students who made that cut to ensure they would not be left behind. The next round considered essays, teacher recommendations, and other activities to make sure they didn't end up with 400 robots. And it seemed to work pretty well.

From what I have read recently, though, they have made the test easier and incorporated more subjective criteria early on, which is a huge mistake. The test needs to be hard to winnow out those who would not be able to make it four years at the school; it sounds harsh, but that's the plain and simple of it. And subjective stuff should be left to the second round, as it is of primary importance to the functioning of the school to make sure the ground that needs to be covered by the objective testing is covered first.

It's who you know and not what you know that gets you into TJ. Same for FCPS employment practices. People of color don't stand a chance applying there for work. They give you the stare down with a look in their eyes that say, "Are you kidding me." When you walk into these interview rooms and your complexion don't match theirs, you are a most unwelcome guest